Just a speech?

[EliteMike]

No, I said if you WANT to watch. lol. I'm done, I have things to do.

[FIT]

I'm not going to lie, I read parts of it and only parts. Damn thing was long.

Well if you do I think you'll agree it doesn't advocate for one side or other. It is more of a synopsis of where I country stands in regards to race. Obviously, it is how he sees it but who better to evaluate then a guy who is bi-racial?

[Tanning Queen]

Wait, so your Mom wasnt racist but your Grandfather was? I thought you said that everyone was taught by their elders to believe what they believe and so on. That is the whole argument you gave for why people dont get out of poverty. They were taught by thier parents and grandparents, etc. So if your theory is true, then your Mom should be a racist and you should be too.

[brownsuze]

Posted: March 20, 2008
12:45 pm Eastern

By Aaron Klein
© 2008 WorldNetDaily


Hamas leader Mousa Abu Marzook
JERUSALEM – Sen. Barack Obama's Chicago church reprinted a manifesto by Hamas that defended terrorism as legitimate resistance, refused to recognize the right of Israel to exist and compared the terror group's official charter – which calls for the murder of Jews – to America's Declaration of Independence.
The Hamas piece was published on the "Pastor's Page" of the Trinity United Church of Christ newsletter reserved for Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr., whose anti-American, anti-Israel remarks landed Obama in hot water, prompting the presidential candidate to deliver a major race speech earlier this week.
Hamas, responsible for scores of shootings, suicide bombings and rocket launchings against civilian population centers, is listed as a terrorist group by the U.S. State Department.
The revelation follows a recent WND article quoting Israeli security officials who expressed "concern" about Robert Malley, an adviser to Obama who has advocated negotiations with Hamas and providing international assistance to the terrorist group.
In his July 22, 2007, church newsletter, Wright reprinted an article by Mousa Abu Marzook, identified in the publication as a "deputy of the political bureau of Hamas." A photo image of the piece was captured and posted today by the business blog BizzyBlog, which first brought attention to it. The Hamas article was first published by the Los Angeles Times, garnering the newspaper much criticism.



According to senior Israeli security officials, Marzook, who resides in Syria alongside Hamas chieftain Khaled Meshaal, is considered the "brains" behind Hamas, designing much of the terror group's policies and ideology. Israel possesses what it says is a large volume of specific evidence that Marzook has been directly involved in calling for or planning scores of Hamas terrorist offensives, including deadly suicide bombings. He was also accused of attempting to set up a Hamas network in the U.S.
Marzook's original piece was titled, "Hamas' stand" but was re-titled "A Fresh View of the Palestinian Struggle" by Obama's church newsletter. The newsletter also referred to Hamas as the "Islamic Resistance Movement," and added in its introduction that Marzook was addressing Hamas' goals for "all of Palestine."
In the manifesto, Marzook refers to Hamas' "resistance" – the group's perpetuation of anti-Israel terrorism targeting civilians – as "legal resistance," which, he argues, is "explicitly supported by the Fourth Geneva Convention."
The Convention, which refers to the rights of people living under occupation, does not support suicide bombings or rocket attacks against civilian population centers, the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America noted.
Marzook refers to Hamas' official charter as "an essentially revolutionary document" and compares the violent creed to the Declaration of Independence, which, Marzook states, "simply did not countenance any such status for the 700,000 African slaves at that time."
Hamas' charter calls for the murder of Jews. Among its platforms is a statement that the "[resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, and the rock and the tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, kill him!'"
In his piece, Marzook says Hamas only targets Israel and denies that Hamas' war is meant to be waged against the U.S., even though Hamas officials have threatened America, and Hamas' charter calls for Muslims to "pursue the cause of the Movement (Hamas), all over the globe."
Trinity Church did not respond to a phone message requesting comment.
Obama's campaign also did not reply to phone and e-mail requests today for comment.
Obama aide wants talks with terrorists
WND reported in January that Malley, an Obama foreign policy adviser, has penned numerous opinion articles, many of them co-written with a former adviser to the late Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat, petitioning for dialogue with Hamas and blasting Israel for policies he says harm the Palestinian cause.
Malley also previously penned a well-circulated New York Review of Books piece largely blaming Israel for the collapse of the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations at Camp David in 2000 when Arafat turned down a Palestinian state in the West Bank, Gaza and eastern sections of Jerusalem and instead returned to the Middle East to launch an intifada, or terrorist campaign, against the Jewish state.
Malley's contentions have been strongly refuted by key participants at Camp David, including President Clinton, then-Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak and primary U.S. envoy to the Middle East Dennis Ross, all of whom squarely blamed Arafat's refusal to make peace for the talks' failure.
In February 2006, after Hamas won a majority of seats in the Palestinian parliament and amid a U.S. and Israeli attempt to isolate the Hamas-run Palestinian Authority, Malley wrote an op-ed for the Baltimore Sun advocating international aid to the terror group's newly formed government.
"The Islamists (Hamas) ran on a campaign of effective government and promised to improve Palestinians' lives; they cannot do that if the international community turns its back," wrote Malley in a piece entitled, "Making the Best of Hamas' Victory."
Malley contended the election of Hamas expressed Palestinian "anger at years of humiliation and loss of self-respect because of Israeli settlement expansion, Arafat's imprisonment, Israel's incursions, Western lecturing and, most recently and tellingly, the threat of an aid cutoff in the event of an Islamist success."
Malley said the U.S. should not "discourage third-party unofficial contacts with [Hamas] in an attempt to moderate it."
In an op-ed in the Washington Post in January coauthored by Arafat adviser Hussein Agha, Malley – using what could be perceived as anti-Israel language – urged Israel's negotiating partner, Abbas, to reunite with Hamas.
"A renewed national compact and the return of Hamas to the political fold would upset Israel's strategy of perpetuating Palestinian geographic and political division," wrote Malley.
He further petitioned Israel to hold talks with Hamas.
"An arrangement between Israel and Hamas could advance both sides' interests," Malley wrote.
In numerous other op-eds, Malley advocated a policy of engagement with Hamas.
__________________

[FIT]

Wait, so your Mom wasnt racist but your Grandfather was?

See post #195

[BIG AL]

Why all this bantering back and forth. Let's just cut to the chase and get this over with. Fit, you are an idiot. Nuff said.

[brownsuze]

~~High five!~~

[Tanning Queen]

I read that too. But from your statements, she should still be a racist and so should you.

[EliteMike]

Thank you, that's what I got from the statements too

[FIT]

Why all this bantering back and forth. Let's just cut to the chase and get this over with. Fit, you are an idiot. Nuff said.

At least you're funny. Misguided but funny.

[FIT]

But from your statements, she should still be a racist and so should you

I feel like I'm arguing with a third grader. OK let's take it from the top. My mother had two parents growing up. Both of whom would qualify as being a part of her "environment". Her father as great as he was occasionally made racist comments. Her mother did not and taught her children differently. My mom took after her mother, my oldest uncle took after his father. Both were damn near mirror images of their parents including my oldest uncles recent battle with pancreatic cancer at 57 - just like his father he lost that battle.

Somehow now that I've made the argument people are a product of their environment - before today something I've never heard anyone disagree with, somehow now that means that everyone HAS TO BECOME THE EXACT SAME PERSON THEY WERE RAISED BY! Geesh, you guys are ridiculous.

I'm not saying every single person is going to turn out EXACTLY like the person they grew up around. There are always exceptions but if you don't think the environment you are raised in doesn't effect the path you choose you have to be the two most stubborn people I've ever met.

Are you telling me these 12 year old kids blowing themselves up in Iraq were born Islamist extremists? They taught themselves to be terrorists? Look out for the families that have adopted Iraqi orphans and are raising them in the U.S. We're gonna have a bunch of domestic terrorists loose in a dozen years!

[EliteMike]

There is a slight difference between being trained and naturally learning it by observing your surroundings

[FIT]

What child isn't "trained" by his superiors? By older siblings? You're arguing something that is so basic I'm almost at a lost for words.

Wikipedia's definition of culture:

Culture can be defined as all the ways of life, arts, beliefs and institutions of a population that are passed down from generation to generation. Culture has been called "the way of life for an entire society." As such, it includes codes of manners, dress, language, religion, rituals, norms of behavior such as law and morality, and systems of belief as well as the art Various definitions of culture reflect differing theories for understanding, or criteria for evaluating, human activity

[Tanning Queen]

You totally should vote for Obama. You flip flop on your opinions as much as he does.

[FIT]

You flip flop on your opinions as much as he does

Show me. Every statement I've made is in this thread. Show me where I've flip-flopped!

[Tanning Queen]

You are funny.

All I have ever said is that you can get yourself out of any situation you are in if you want to. No it isnt always easy, but you have choices. Even children know right from wrong. You dont have to be taught that shooting someone is wrong. That stealing is wrong. That has nothing to do with race or environment. Every one here in America has the chance to make a better life for themselves.

[Tanning Queen]

And by the way, it is "at a LOSS for words".

[Tanning Queen]

WHat about the kids from America that have joined in the Jihad against the US? They werent taught that in their families here.

[Tanning Queen]

I am being stubborn because you just wont believe that not everyone is going to end up like the "rest of them" from their childhood.

[JustTans23]

Originally Posted by FIT

This is real. Both sides. JustTans says the following:



Should we criticize her? Should we ask her how she was raised? Who raised her? Where did she get the money to open her salon? What opportunities did she get that someone her same age born in the projects didn't get?

Barack says no. He says her argument has merit BUT can you also look at it from the other perspective? Can we as a nation stop pointing the finger? Can we stop playing the blame game? Can we unify JustTans and her counterpart and make a more perfect union?

I'm 37 years old and I registered to vote for the first time in December 2007. I did it for one reason. I believe if we are willing to follow we have a candidate who will lead us to a better place.

Will it cost me an extra $2000 this year in taxes? Maybe. Will that money help someone else who needs it more than me? Maybe. Maybe not. Will that $2000 make or break my personal financial portfolio? No. Will it force me to close my business? No. Will a weak economy cost me 5x that? Yes. 10x that? Maybe.

I'm not soliciting anyones vote. There aren't enough people in this forum to make a difference. But if I can open someone's mind to NEW thinking I'll feel like I contributed.

Best of luck to all,
FIT

K well I haven't read the rest of this thread yet but to respond to that...I was raised never to expect free handouts. That I was to work hard for everything I wanted. Not to count on anyone but myself to save me if I was in trouble. I am responsible for my own actions and my own future. No one else. Not to say my parents haven't given me anything or helped with the salon at all, but they got to where they are because they believe the same thing and they worked their ass off to get there.

And I believe there are plenty of people born in the projects that worked hard and became successful. I also know there are plenty of people who were born in the suburbs who sat on their ass and are now in the projects. It doesn't matter where you are born you get to where you want to be by how hard you work. People that expect someone to swoop in and save them have been watching too many movies.

Now on to read the rest of this thread...